Interesting that the response to the tight guarding of IMac is shoot further out.
I would think/hope it would be drive closer and pull up or pass out.
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Would love to see Shot Quality charts from the dark ages (Dec 16-Jan 13) compared to the last 3 games though. I donât think thatâs just Minor fwiw. Just a shift in how everyone has played.
We havenât looked amazing, but observationally seem to be getting much better looks overall.
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Unfortunately, I think the answer is simple: he struggles getting to the tin (only 15 attempts at the rim), he struggles scoring there when he does get there (only 5 makes), and he struggles making his mid-range pull-ups (21-62). Why doesnât he get there and pass it? Heâs not enough of a threat to draw a lot of defenders, and not a great distributor (hope that comes in the future). Best answer seems to be âback up.â
@zh00s That would be interesting. We got a lot of looks from 3 at GT, and scored a lot. Just seems to be anomalousâŚ
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He needs to get better flying off screens catch and pull up. Better know. As The Kyle Guy
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Agreed on that. Shoot âem from downtown Isaac.
I would also say that Isaac has a clear offseason opportunity to get stronger so that he can better finish through contact at the rim. P5 hoops has had many guards of similar height / similar jumping (even shorter guys) that finish much better up close. He can get there. The ability to do that will also, hopefully, make him much more inclined to either shoot 3s or shoot at the rim. Minimize the mid range.
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Strongly agree on this too (even though Huckâs color commentary leads people to believe Isaacâs off ball movement is unparalleled).
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Huck is awesome though. Unreal voice too
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Everyone was walking on water on Wednesday night⌠if what the color guy said was true⌠in 4 years every player on both rosters will be starting in the NBA.
Agree on the offseason work. No reason that IMac canât be average on rim finishes for a P5 shooting guard. He has the athleticism, he needs the craft and will.
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I really believe that in the not too distant future we will be watching IMac making the 12-15 foot jumper at a high rate and when we need them. He gets lots of elevation, squares well, and is a good shooter. Wonât bother me to see him shoot 5 or 6 of those a game. Will also open up that three for him.
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Yeah but even Joe Harris was able to get his shot off. Now he is 3 inches taller, bigger etc. but Imac is bigger than Kyle, so heâs got to choose between the two type of players he wants to be like, unless he develops more of his game.
The great ones take things from multiple similar guys and try and get good at it.
Adapt vs adopt
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Iâm not sure if this is a blessing or a curse. Our offense has looked less futile with JM. Unfortunately our offense is still pretty poor, and Side probably isnât a great match for our personnel.
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Almost always front of rim on those pull ups. He needs to keep shooting them - he will calibrate.
I keep hearing that sides is not a great offensive system for our personnel but Iâm curious what is a better alternative for a group of dudes that canât really beat you 1:1.
I feel like rather than upheave it, itâs more about just adding more wrinkles - actions to clear out space for Dunn to drive / slash, two man game with Minor, and for the love of god set pieces for Isaac. Maybe the occasional get guys out and run with Reece.
But weâre not gonna change identity because Rohde canât hit a set shot.
Just a dilettante on this stuff, but my short answer is ball screen. I think the âbring back Kirk Penneyâ stuff is a bit overboard, but basically, if you believe the Rob Dauster narrative (and I have no reason to doubt it), we ran ball screen offenses heavily in two seasons: the year after Tony consulted him about offensive changes (18-19), and the year he came on as a staff member (19-20). One of those years we had an awesome offense and won the natty, and the next we had the worst offense in the history of organized basketball. So, thereâs not necessarily anything magic about Penney.
But we rarely** ran ball screen stuff before the famous Penney chit chat, and weâve rarely run it since he left.
Also, minor quibble, but I think we have three guys who can beat their man 1:1, or at the very least get an advantage that we could then use to make a play.
Finally, we could do more (and sometimes are, to be fair, but âsometimesâ being fairly generous on my part) to get easy buckets: transition, offensive boards, draw fouls, etc.
I basically think itâs all a bit moot: most likely*** scenario is we do what kinda worked well v VPI and NC State. Try to run a top 10 defense and score somewhere between 45 and 60 and hope thatâs enough.
** It lives on in what @Cuts_from_The_Corner calls âFlowâ, but it seems we mostly use that to run quick hitters or transition into Sides.
*** âMost likelyâ meaning that there are all sorts of potential scenarios that could happen, too.
By the ways:
- Read the article. Itâs good and a good reminder of stuff that we (I) forget.
- Why would Tony say weâve stopped running some of this stuff? I suspect it mostly comes down to not having enough shooters. (Iâd then wonder why sides is the better answerâŚ)
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Flow is what they call it now and is basically a reference to all of the ball screen offenses.
But here are all of the different approaches to it that Iâve found:
At the beginning of a possession, they clear out a side of the floor and allow the ball handler to either use a ball screen or reject on an open side of the floor - if this doesnât work theyâll set up into any other offense - Kihei did this a ton early in a possession last year.
At the beginning of a possession theyâll set a ball screen in the middle of the floor and, if that doesnât work, will turn that into Sides (sometimes Triangle but mostly Sides)
Full offense where they have two guys in each corner, one on the wing, set a ball screen on the opposite wing and keep running that until the end of the possession
Full on offense where they clear out a side, set a ball screen there and then, if that doesnât work, rotate through and do it on the other side, often with a baseline cutter but there are other movements theyâll use to set this up and regain the original positioning or play off of it - this is more what they did during 2019.
Ball screen at the point with two in each corner but, rather than have a player on the opposite wing, that player is on the block.
All of that falls under the umbrella of âFlow.â At least for the purpose of our being able to discuss it easily and how they talk about it. Iâm not sure exactly what the names are of each of those respective sets are or how they call them, but they all fall within the same concept of setting a ball screen and then either turning that into a different offense or running it through and resetting the position (continuity ball screen) and all are the same âbaseâ offense in a sense like Sides and Triangle have different actions and variations between them.
They did these more heavily earlier in the season. The problem is that neither Dunn nor Groves are great ball screeners and when you play Minor or Buchanan with Dunn defenses have been sagging off the one not setting the ball screen - clogging the middle. Theyâre starting to combat this a little bit with how Dunn is playing - but theyâve mostly decided that theyâll just play Sides because itâs harder to effectively help and theyâre still getting a lot of that pick and roll action on either side.
Not sure if all of that was clear - trying to respond quickly.
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I largely agree with you but there will definitely be despair if we lay an egg tomorrow 
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Iâve become the âthe quality of screens matters, sure, but not as much as I keep readingâ guy, so I will keep being that guy. So here goes: the quality of screens matters, sure, but not as much as I keep reading.
Like, how good are the screens Huff is setting on these plays:
Iâd say âjust fine, not good, but just fineâ. The reason theyâre working is the things he can do offensively. I think the reasons we are not running ball screens is more that (1) yes, as you point, out we lack guys with multiple skills on offense, and (2) Tony thinks we donât have good rollers.
To which my response is: of course, we donât have good rollers! We barely have good anything! If we were somewhere capturing something good with sides, this would wash for me. But we are awful and getting worse on offense. And Minor is a very good roller!
So for the millionth time, Tony â your offense is garbage, and you can change it!! (two exclamation points). (Seattle Hoo doesnât message board anymore, or even podcast, just the occasional tweet, so someone has to whine incessantly about ball screens⌠if you see him / talk to him @StLouHoo hug him for me).
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