šŸ™„ No Holds Barred Thread - A Haney/DavetheWave Production

Either way it’s not a great look for CTB this year. The options are A.) CTB hasn’t played his talented freshmen enough to prepare the team for either the end of this year or next year while still missing the tournament or B.) he’s missed on yet another post-2016 recruiting class. Right now the only positive alternative is that they’re not good right now but will be in the future, which is more plausible than it was with JAR (or McCorkle) because they’re international guys. And I acknowledge the general logic behind what @HoozGotNext says regarding one time transfers changing roster construction, and that Murray and Igor would have to play this year without it. But we’re only asking them to beat out Malachi and Kody. And I know in the past I’ve said that the game has passed CTB which I acknowledge was an incredibly stupid thing to say so I don’t want this criticism to get lumped in with that.

I think why this causes some anxiety alludes back to what @BDragon said. I don’t expect CTB to be a lifer here at this point. I think the game is changing in ways that he isn’t comfortable with from an amateurism standpoint and it goes against his mission (or what he’s said to be his mission). So to see not only this year be a total waste but potentially next year as well is really troubling when we may only have 4-5 years of CTB left

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Could be.

Think that points to the larger recruiting and talent evaluation issue that others have mentioned. As well as general roster construction.

Since 2016 class, maybe Reece!! is the only one showing NBA potential (and that’s a big maybe).

Anecdotally, we’ve passed up on some recruits that prob could have helped (DaRon Holmes, Ben Gregg). Or lost in recruiting battles where I’m not sure the player would have helped this roster anyway (Keels, Warley).

I’m not going to say that the game has passed him by, would never say that. He’s shown plenty of willingness and ability to adapt his offenses to his personnel and to modern concepts of spacing and efficiency. He’s also tweaked the pack line to fit the personnel to some extent. I’ve even seen him employ switches at times this season.

I was watching this Sperber video discussing switches as a reaction to players being better shooters now than a decade ago and the weaknesses of concepts like the hard hedge.

I wonder if Coach Bennett would ever reconsider his fundamental coaching philosophy of a defense first team playing the pack line. This defense can still work in college because guys in college can’t shoot like NBA players and there aren’t dangerous marksmen at every position like in the NBA, but this video really did get me to thinking… https://youtu.be/E4H_qxksBFA

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My reaction to that video was basically personnel-related: when the packline has worked best, we have ridiculously good athletes: Malc (length, strength, versatility), Darion/Akil/Mamadi (ups, lateral quickness), Brax/Dre (tall, long, versatile). I think guys who can heat up the ball (Kihei) and rim protectors (Jay, Mamadi, Shed) are also great to have. Plus a glove guy like Reece (or Malc or Dre) is great in any defense.

Basically, packline as applied to the modern game puts a premium on guys who can closeout with speed and length and still recover to defend a drive.

But the guys who can succeed in that role, are generally the same types of guys you need for no-middle, switching, and even a good 2-3 zone.

So IMO, it’s less important what we call our defense that we make sure we get lots of guys like Malc, Akil, Darion, Dre, Brax, Mamadi, Shed and (hopefully) Bond and Dunn.

In the future, every basketball player will be 6-7 and be able to play or guard 1-5. :joy:

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but they will be listed at 6-9!

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Don’t think Ben Gregg is a big loss. Also I still take Kadin over Daron.

Guard play is the issue. In the span of two years we lost Jerome and Guy early, had Juzang stolen from us and didn’t have Casey/Jabri pan out. That’s what’s killing us. If Armaan is just 33/34% from 3 on the season we are in the tourney as an 8/9 seed

Edit: whoops meant to respond to @Hoohoohoo

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Good points but, I noticed you said beat out. Is it fair to ask? Did Malachi beat out or climbed from the bottom to earn his minutes. Of course all the M’s are on this level for a reason. I just believe Malachi at this point is just a all around better basketball player. That does include more than just shooting. When his time come to put up shots or create for his own and the team many eyes will be opened.

100% Haney. Every other year we need to recruit the *baseline players who can play in TB’s defense at the 3/4 position. These guys do NOT have to be supremely talented offensively, but are athletic, can rebound, play defense, block some shots. We need 2 such *Men that exist on the team every year. If they are able to develop offensively then more power to them. We can then sprinkle in the talent on top of that baseline. This will allow our team performance to have a ā€œhigh floorā€, so that we are always a pain in the ass defensively which allows us to win plenty of games due to *that strength alone.

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@hooandtrue, you mention Kadin over Daron, but Kadin is a 3rd year academically at UVa. This also means that this is his third year atleast being able to *study the packline even if he was injured the past 2 years. Daron Holmes would have been fantastic to have on this team as a true 1st year. I say every 2 years that we need to have these type of high floor defensive, rebounding, shotblocking, athletic guys and if their offense develops then that is icing on top. We then can sprinkle the ā€œoffensively talentedā€ players on top.

However I also 100% agree with your guard analysis and all of those misses. I feel bad for Kihei as he has only been able to play with a Ty Jerome & Kyle Guy *like player in his first year (I’m not saying that they’re easily replaceable, or that they weren’t special). However, we should have been able to find another 6’4/6’5 combo guard like Jerome over the past 3-6 years, who could also run the offense and shoot. All we needed is one from somewhere in the whole entire basketball playing world. For example an Austin Reaves whom was fantastic at Oklahoma and is now on the Lakers. To be truthful since the 2016 class we’ve had defensive guards at the 1-2 position like Kihei, Casey, and Reece, but nobody that could do anything on the other end of the court.

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What would you consider our best defensive team? I’d say one of 15 18 or 20. 20s the freshest in all of our minds, let’s use that one.

How would the 20 team defend the 21 team if that team had 5th year super senior Kyle Guy at the 2?

That kind of team may be the pack line’s biggest weakness and there’s a growing number of them now. Or maybe not. I don’t know any basketball so don’t listen to me.

Kadin has a higher ceiling. Taller, more mobile, better shot blocking potential, more athletic. Also this is his first full year and technically he can have 3 more after this (covid year) and Daron would be horrible in the packline. He has some flat feet. He’s doing good because of his high usage.

Also Daron has the benefit of having guards who can space the floor and provide more space inside.

Im not taking Daron over Kadin, but I would take Daron as a 4 man alongside kadin. 2 rim protectors who will show more of their shooting touch most likely next season. Both pick n roll/pick n pop guys.

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Yeah, it’s an interesting question. A few thoughts:

  • Easy - it’s the same team. Kyle comes off the bench because Reece is a better defender. I kid … I kid… Ok, serious thoughts:
  • Any team with Guy at the 2, Murph at the 3, Sam at the 4, and Jay at the 5, with an always open Kihei at the 1, is going to be super hard for any defense to guard
  • Against that particular team, you’re probably better off with a switching defense because that team still really couldn’t punish you at the rim (maybe a 5th year Kyle would be a good dribble drive weapon – by memory, he was pretty good, but never great going to the rack in the half court).
  • We actually did play a team that wasn’t SO different: 2015-16 Nova. Going into the game, Tony’s mantra was basically double down on the pack. How did it work? Not that well, tbh. I haven’t seen video of that game in forever, but the box score shows Nova with 75 points. In particular, Jenkins killed us, with 5 made threes, and 8 FT’s. (Zay was a very active defender and he did all the little things, but I personally believe his defensive prowess has been a bit inflated by UVa fans - he was a bit undersized in the post / not exactly an elite athlete / had some issues defending on the perimeter / elite motor though).
  • I think that the 14 and 15 teams would switch someone out on Jenkins to get a better matchup (Justin? Darion?)
  • But when I really look back at that box score, what sticks out is (1) we scored 86 points (though about 10 or so were late game FTs), (2) despite shooting only 12 3 pointers, (3) despite having three guys who are playing elite-level hoops due to their 3-pt shooting prowess (Malc, Tobey, Gill) and (4) two of those elite 3-pt shooters took zero three pointers, and the other took only 3.
  • Now I forget what we were talking about and what I really want to talk about is the alternate history where 2015-16 UVa (1) allowed Gill and Tobey to play together more (i.e., dominate together more), (2) with a ball-screen based offense, and (3) using Gill and Tobey as shooters, roll men, floor spacers, and (4) using Malc and Marial as slashers from the perimeter. Who says no?
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Yes I agree with this take in that it would be nice to always have 4 players for the 4/5 position for foul trouble etc. There were times this season in which Papi or Kadin got some BS fouls calls and we had to sub one out for the other. Example- dook and Notre Dame.

If Daron were on this team he would have the year to develop…however I do understand not scaring off Isaac Traudt, so maybe Daron Holmes wouldn’t have needed to be the player but atleast someone else, less-heralded 3-star-ish, but with athleticism, length, rebounding ability etc. who wouldn’t mind the 4 year route to develop and wouldn’t scare of Traudt.

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Daron and Traudt at the 4/5 is a perfect complimentary pairing.

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May also be the leader in pissing people off by earning playing time.

From Jay Bilas and I agree:

There is a lot to celebrate about the game this season, but …

Let me start this rant by saying I love basketball more than anything. When you love something you fight for what is best for it and acknowledge when it needs proper care. If you have a beautiful house you don’t ignore the repair and maintenance of that valuable asset because you wish to celebrate its positives. If there is a fire in one part of the house, you don’t say that the rest of the place is amazing, so why worry about that blaze elsewhere? You yell ā€œFIRE!ā€ and immediately address the danger it presents.

Well, we have a fire in college basketball, and it is spreading to the rest of our house. It is officiating. Not individual officials but the officiating of the game.

College basketball’s officiating problem is getting worse. Several years ago, the administrators of the game made great strides to reduce overt physicality and allow offenses to have freedom of movement without being fouled. But, some five years ago, scoring had reached an all-time low and the games were suffering as a result. A lot of work was done to ameliorate the problem, to have the games called by the rules as written. As a result of the work done in that area, the game got significantly better.

Well, all those gains have been given back and we now have hockey games in the major conferences, not basketball games. It is, in a word, depressing. This season, freedom of movement does not exist and the college game more closely resembles the NBA in the 1990s, a physical slugfest and fistfight every night.

Turn on any major conference game, and you will see arm bars on ball handlers not in the post, handchecking, bumping and chucking of cutters, illegally riding cutters and screeners off of their paths, and overt physicality in the post area, including a lack of enforcement of verticality on shooters. Whatever you see on the floor in major conferences this season is not basketball and would not be allowed in the NBA or FIBA. Hell, it would not be allowed in the NFL on wide receivers. It is wrong and needs to be seriously addressed. Coaches are confounded and complaining, and so are the bloviating gasbags who announce the games.

The most damning data point? Fouls called are at an all-time low this season. Given how ridiculously physical this game has become, that is impossible. Officials are either missing the fouls committed or ignoring them. And it is clearly the latter. Individual officials cannot and should not be blamed, as they are just doing what their bosses are allowing them to do. The fault lies with the administration of the game.

The product we see on the floor is the responsibility of NCAA national coordinator of officials J.D. Collins, the conference supervisors of officials, the conference commissioners and the rules and competition committees. (Disclosure: I am a member of the NCAA Division I Men’s Basketball Competition Committee.) This is not said lightly, but changes should be considered if this clear problem is not fixed. The conference commissioners should order their supervisors to crack down on officials to call the games according to the rules as written and interpreted. If they do not, the supervisors should be subject to replacement with people who will properly do the job.

The competition is great and perhaps has never been better. The players are incredibly athletic and skilled. But the officiating sucks. Coaches are teaching players to foul because they know the officials will not call it, and those coaches would be rank idiots if they did not adjust by teaching players to ā€œdefendā€ according to how the games are called. But they are not teaching defense, they are teaching fouling because the officials will not call clear fouls.

Again, foul calls are at an all-time low . That is impossible if these games are officiated appropriately. Think of it this way: If cops allow drivers to go 80 mph in a 65 mph zone on the highway, speeding will not decrease. Speeding will increase. If traffic cops want to reduce speeding, they ticket it and drivers will adjust and watch their speed. If officials don’t call clear fouls, fouling will increase, not decrease. Nobody is asking that officials call ā€œtouch fouls.ā€ On the contrary: Call the clear fouls and clean up the game so that offensive players are allowed freedom of movement.

Not every defender is capable of guarding a good offensive player one-on-one. If the defender gets beat, bring help and rotate. Bring a trap or double-team. But the defender cannot put an arm bar on the offensive player or illegally impede that player. That is what we allow now. It needs to be remedied but it is likely too late this season for significant change. What will the result of this be? We will get to the NCAA tournament, where the supervisor has a hammer over the officials. The officials will call the games as directed by the NCAA supervisor or they will not move on to further assignments. Some teams from major conferences will have to adjust to the games being called closer, as they should have been all season. After a season of hockey games, these teams will be required to play basketball. A few won’t be able to adjust and will lose earlier than they should as a result.

Foul calls are at an all-time low. Marinate on that one for a while. That is a blistering indictment of officiating in the college game.

Rant over, as we get off of our high horse that is standing on a soapbox. Boy, that feels better, doesn’t it?

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When I hear Jay Bilas he doesn’t sound like someone who loves the game at all. He sounds like a fan of any other sport that’s being forced to call a basketball game, so he spends the whole game subtly trashing it.

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@Hooandtrue 's post on another thread piqued my curiosity on this, so I figured I’d do a few minutes of research. Here’s a list of 2002 generation (i.e., born in 2002) European prospects:
https://eurospects.com/2002-generation-ranking/

And now I’m gonna pull out the guys who went to US colleges (there are a few guys listed with an American college that didn’t seem to wind up there; I’m listing only the guys who are on a US roster) and have at least 3 stars.

  • Banchero (#1) - shouldn’t really be on the list. Dad is European, but Paolo has always been in the US.
  • Diabate (#2) - starter on Michigan, a bubble team
  • Tubelis (#6) - starter on Arizona, a 1-seed
  • Igor (#14) - out of the rotation / garbage minutes (double digit minutes in only 5 games, mostly cupcakes) on UVa, an NIT team
  • Batcho (#16) - about 8 minutes per game in Big 12 games for Texas Tech, a 3-seed
  • Sarunas’s kid (#20) - starter during league play (until last game) for St Mary’s, a 7-seed
  • Gorener (NR) - starter on San Jose St, a terrible team
  • Hildreth (NR) - averaged about 20 minutes until early Jan, now mostly out of the rotation, for Wake, a 10-seed
  • Yvan O. (NR) - starter on Grand Canyon, #97 KenPom
  • Stefanovic - starter on Utah, not a tourney team (NIT or NCAA)

My takeaways, eyeballing the data:

  • Igor’s peers, on average are starters or rotation guys on NCAA tourney teams
  • Significant caveat - some of these guys (Yvan O, Gorener) are in their second year in college
  • If you didn’t watch UVa hoops, you would NOT look at this data and conclude that European guys take longer to adjust to US college hoops
  • Since you do watch UVa hoops, you may have concluded that European guys take longer to adjust to US college hoops. IMO, there is not evidence for that conclusion.
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The only European is Igor. Big difference between foreign Europeans and foreign New Zealanders/Australians. Not, by the way, arguing for more Oceanic recruits.

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I’ve felt for a while the whole ā€œthey need a bunch of time to adjustā€, while having some truth, is closer to a thing we just tell ourselves to feel better than it is a real rule (and something the coaches say to take pressure off those players). With a guy like Mamadi who was literally much newer to basketball than most basketball players - sure, definitely true. And it’s probably also true that most overseas programs aren’t running a system like ours so it’ll take time to learn that. But guys like Taine and Igor have been playing basketball for a long time in various settings. Anyway, who knows.

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